In Conversation

Manda: Hey people, welcome to Accidental Gods, to the membership program and the podcast where we believe that another world is still possible. That if each of us commits ourselves in service to life, there is still the possibility that we might all together lay the foundations for a future we would be proud to leave to the generations that come after us. We say this knowing that it will take inner work and outer work. The inner work is healing our relationships with ourselves, between ourselves and each other, and above all, between ourselves and the web of life. And this is what the membership program is for, doing our best to help our 21st century traumatised and traumatising culture move towards a different set of values. If we each woke up tomorrow morning and decided that our absolute priority was clean water, clean air, clean soil and clean, clear hearted, open hearted, full hearted, strong hearted connections with ourselves, each other and the web of life, our world would transform before we went to bed tomorrow night. This is the inner work. I also would say it is the most essential and the most urgent. And yes, it takes time. And so the podcast is here because I think we need the encouragement of people who are already working at that emergent edge of inter-becoming change. People who are working in the best way they know how, towards the outcomes that we need, so that you can see and feel what’s possible. So that you can have actual templates of the outer work that you could commit to, depending on your means and your circumstances, where you are, who you are, what’s yours to do as a conscious node in the wider complex system of the web. So this is why we exist.

Manda: And as we move into 2025, we will be building on this with as much energy and inspiration as we can bring to it. And usually we have guests, people who seem to me to exemplify some aspect of this work, but once in a while it’s just me reflecting on the moment and offering the things that I’ve read or listened to or seen or experienced that I think are useful. I used to do half yearly roundups and they seem too far apart now. So this is one of these, and it feels timely in part because I’m not long home from the Oxford Real Farming Conference, which was immensely heartening, and I want to share the joyful optimism of this. And partly today is the end of an era. It is Sunday the 19th of January 2025, and if you’re anywhere in the English speaking world listening to this podcast, then you are well aware that basically democracy dies tomorrow. Though, as you’ll also be aware, if you listen to this podcast, we didn’t really have democracy. We had a kleptocracy at best, a kakocracy at worst, and all of it was working against the kind of equitable and generative future that we want to leave as our legacy.

Manda: We will come back to that, though. Let’s go to Oxford first, one of the centres of learning in the UK; the dreaming spires that are also one of the absolute centres of colonialism. This place embodies the ideas of the trauma culture, the sense that we are here to extract, consume, destroy, pollute. That whoever dies with the most toys wins and it doesn’t really matter how we get to the top of the pile, as long as we do. Everybody beneath us really isn’t important, and the fact that they are beneath us means that they are lesser. And we will produce layers upon layers of motivated reasoning and call them philosophy or science, or just plain intellectual rigour, and tell everybody that we are right and they are wrong. I spent a lot of my early professional career as a vet at the Cambridge Vet School, and Cambridge is a very slightly lesser version of Oxford. And the sense of entitlement that hangs around these places is palpable and takes a long time to shed. And yet, for a couple of days at the beginning of January, for the last 11 years, alongside the Farming conference, which is industrial agriculture at its absolute worst, is the Real Farming Conference, which is there to promote regenerative agriculture; agro ecological processes. Whatever it is that you want to say, that is about us doing our best to stop the command and control dominance mode of farming, where we just basically enslave the web of life in service to making more and more money.

Manda: And instead, we endeavour to see how can we produce food for 8.5 billion people in ways that actually works with the web of life? I have been meaning to go here for a very long time, probably since it started, but actually this year I was invited to two days, so I had to had to go. And I wrenched myself away from the farm at a point when it was minus eight below zero. That is -eight degrees centigrade. I have no idea what that is in farenheit, but it was cold enough that Faith was taking out buckets of water for the ponies every hour because they took an hour to freeze. Being away from the farm at this point was not a clever thing to do, but even so, I am really, really glad that I was there. And the first of the two days in which I was involved was not even part of the main real farming conference. Two groups had got together: the UN Conscious Food Systems Alliance; I will say that again, there is a part of the UN that is devoted to the concept of Conscious food systems, that is really talking to the land. That is absolutely not just shifting data points, which sadly is what a lot of NGOs are for and absolutely what a lot of the UN is for.

Manda: Not that any of the people there are necessarily bad people, but they are inculcated in a system that requires that they shift the dots on the graph in a way that everybody agrees is good, and everybody is agreeing from within the old system. But there are a whole lot of people who know that this is not actually the way the world is, and it certainly isn’t the way the world needs to be. And so a group of them got together and formed the Conscious Food Systems Alliance, which in and of itself is amazing and really heartening. And they are really inspiring people, and I absolutely hope to have one, two or more of them on the podcast. I’m booked into July, so it won’t be just yet, but we will bring them along and talk to them and find out more about what they’re doing and why they’re doing it and how they’re doing it. Anyway, they connected with the Animate Earth Collective, which is Rachel Fleming, Colin Campbell and Angharad Wynne, who has been on the podcast. And together they hosted an entire day of ceremony and really moving meditations and connections to each other and the land. To acknowledging the need for us to create spiritual connections to the land, to actually open our heart minds and ask the web of life, what do you want of me? And find ways to answer that. It was really inspiring.

Manda: First of all, that this could happen. Second, that the church in which it was held was absolutely packed out and somebody stood up at the end and said they knew of at least a dozen people who had not been able to get tickets and could it be bigger next year? And yes, next year it will be bigger. But this year it was beautiful. And it wasn’t only white people talking to each other about how we can listen to the land, although that is important. And we had indigenous peoples from all four of the nations of the islands of Britain. But we also had genuine elders from around the world who came and spoke to us, who blessed our altar, who brought the teachings and the languages of their land. And if you’re familiar with this podcast at all, you’ll know that finding how we in the trauma culture can move beyond our perpetual adolescence into actual adulthood and elderhood is becoming, I think, one of the critical questions of our time. And this was a really moving example of how we can do that, of how it is done in other places and how we potentially can learn and how we are learning. I would say some of the elders of our culture were in that room, and it was deeply, deeply moving.

Manda: I have put links in the show notes so you can follow it up, and perhaps so you can be there next year. And then on the day after, the Real Farming conference itself kicked off. And part of what was interesting was that, because this is adjacent to the farming conference, I walked in from our digs that were half an hour outside Oxford, a nice, bright, sunny day and I wasn’t hauling buckets of water in the freezing cold; and there was a very long line of very big tractors leaning on their horns, parked, lined up in the middle of Oxford, causing complete carnage in Oxford traffic. With very, very angry farmers at their wheels. And I have no real idea what it was they were protesting against, but the rage that was coming from them was absolutely palpable. And one of the things I know with my head, and I’m beginning to realise in the marrow of my bones, is the extent to which we need the tools and the techniques with which we can cross boundaries, bridge the chasms, begin to speak with people who may only want to shout at us at first, or just lean on their horns so that they are splitting the ears of every human and everything in the more than human world for quite a long distance around, so that we understand how angry they are. And underneath that anger is undoubtedly fear. And that fear is generated by the fact that we live in a system that is designed to cripple people if they can’t make enough money.

Manda: And farming is a particularly precarious way to try and earn a living. So we need total systemic change. Again and again we come back to this. In our slightly warmer, slightly friendlier Real Farming conference, there were so many interesting and useful strands justice strands, youth strands, farm practice strands. I sat in on an hour and a half on how people design and build and manage micro dairies, and what the problems and the crises are that they meet. And what was really interesting about that was even on a panel of just three people, there was a really broad spectrum of why they were there. From the young man who was a first generation farmer, who had been told he could either make money by scaling up or going niche, and he couldn’t afford to scale up. So he went for the niche of pasture fed cow and calf dairying, and so he was able to charge £2 a litre at the farm gate rather than getting £0.30 per litre, which is what he would get from the supermarkets. And so he was able almost to make a living from his micro dairy, but not quite. And next to him on the panel was a young woman who had been vegan and vegetarian for a lot of her early life, had realised this wasn’t really solving the problems as she saw them, and so she set up a raw milk micro dairy and she was able to charge £3.50 per litre because people who want raw milk actually want raw milk. And so she was able just to make a living from her four cows.

Manda: And both of them were absolutely honest that they have not begun to solve all of the problems, but they are doing their absolute best to keep the calves with the cows, minimise any kind of stress to either calf or cow or to the Land, increase biodiversity, increase water retention, increase carbon sequestration. All of the things that we can do if we’re actually working with the land. And be able to give people milk and the things that we can make from milk that’s actually designed in the way that humans can digest it, and it does us good instead of doing us harm. The things that you could buy at the farm gate from these young people may look like the stuff that you can get in white bottles from the supermarkets, but it’s actually an entirely different thing, with an entirely different balance of, say, omega three to omega six. And the one that comes from the pasture fed, whole healthy cows is the one that is balanced in the way your body wants and needs, as opposed to the stuff that comes out of the plastic bottles from the supermarket, which is absolutely the opposite of what your body needs.

Manda: And then about halfway through the day, I was invited to talk about thrutopias, what they are and how we get there. That concept that what we need is narratives that map a clear way forward from a recognisable present towards a future that we would all be proud to lead to the generations that come after us, which is likely to be quite familiar to you by now if you’ve listened to any of the previous episodes of this podcast. So I’m not going to rehash it all here, but I think there are some foundations that do bear restating. So let’s start from basics: the current system is not broken. The current system is doing exactly what it was designed to do, which is to maintain power in the hands of those who already have it. And most of those are old, straight, white men. Some of them are younger than others because we have a whole generation of tech geeks who have managed to wrest power and money from the entire system. Funnelling it up the tree until they have more power and money than any human being has ever had in the history of our species. And they are not using it wisely. So that’s the second thing. The system may not be broken, but the current system is not fit for purpose if that purpose is the continuation of complex life on Earth.

Manda: We are right in the middle of the sixth mass extinction. The fifth mass extinction was 64 million years ago. That’s when we lost the dinosaurs and it took thousands of years. Ours is taking place in one lifetime, and that lifetime is ours, now, here, today. This is why we call ourselves the Accidental Gods. I don’t know about you, but I did not grow up thinking that I was going to be part of the species whose every act and whim and capacity to focus attention into intention, was actively and obviously having an impact on whether complex life continues to exist. We are at that point that Ilya Prigogine spoke about, when he said that any complex system reaches maximal complexity and then hits a bifurcation point. There are two options: the system either collapses into chaos and extinction, or it emerges into a new system. And the new system, by definition, is not predictable from the old system. If you can define where we’re going, it’s not a new system, we’re just painting the wheels on the bus a different colour. And currently that bus is hurtling towards the edge of the cliff that leads to extinction. The entire premise of this podcast, of the novel Any Human Power, of everything that I do, is that I genuinely believe there is still time to time to turn the bus from the edge of the cliff. But that time window is shortening very rapidly.

Manda: I listened recently to a podcast called The Wild, which is Sarah Wilson in Australia. And she was talking to Indy Johar of Dark Matter Labs, friend of the podcast, and she called it the starkest collapse prognosis I’ve heard. Which suggests, to be perfectly honest, that she’s not listening to the same kinds of podcasts that I’m listening to, and probably not even this one. But nonetheless, it’s worth listening to. I will put a link in the show notes, because Indy is pretty clear that we have until the end of this decade. At most, until halfway through the next decade, to turn the bus from the edge of the cliff. And to be perfectly frank, I think he’s being optimistic. I think this year is a turning point. And partly, yes, this is because we are watching democracy disintegrate in real time. As Yanis Varoufakis says on the Upstream podcast, basically we are no longer in what used to be considered democracy. We are now in techno feudalism, where (and this is me not Yanis, but I think we’re along the same lines) fundamentally a couple of thousand very, very powerful people now see themselves as overlords of the rest of us, who are at best peasant serfs and at worst slaves. And it’s not just that they want to own all the money. If you listen to a recent podcast with Nate Hagens, talking to John Vervaeke about the meaning crisis, towards the end Nate says that he was at a conference recently and the person after him on the platform said something to the effect that all you have to do is stay fit and healthy for the next five years because then we will have prevented death.

Manda: Or at least I think what he said was we will have extended death to a couple of hundred years, and the implication is by the time you’re a couple of hundred years old, we will have defeated death completely. And John Vervaeke’s response to that was, yep, probably they’re right. And that will make the meaning crisis much, much worse. Because you can probably get yourself through to being 80 years old, having no meaning other than the accumulation of wealth, and hold your inner world intact, just about, for a given version of ‘intact’. But look at 200 years and you will actually need to work out why you’re here and what you’re doing, what you’re for, what your purpose is other than ‘who dies with the most toys wins and I need to get to the top of the pile’. I would say also that the people who think this have not really thought it through; they’re all tech geeks who are by definition afraid of dying. They haven’t engaged with meaning, I would suggest, at any deep level. They certainly haven’t got their heads around the concept of reincarnation. They haven’t even got their heads around the concept of the existing system, in which quite a lot of the people who have got themselves to the top of the pile did so because they inherited quite a lot of money from people who died.

Manda: What happens to their kids and their grandkids and their great grandkids and on and on and on the generations down the line, when nobody is dying and letting go of their grip of their dragon’s hoards, that they gather and gather and gather and let go of none of it? Let us imagine the great great grandchild of one of these people just gets a bit tired and decides to bump off the dragon at the top of the pile, who is hoarding all of the value? Are they then put in prison for life, which is indefinite? Are they put in prison for what used to be a life term? Do the people currently in prison on a life term get to live to be 200 or 1000 or forever? Do we just fill up the prison industrial complex with people who are not dying? It would not be hard to start writing a whole bunch of dystopian novels based on the thought experiments that happen around this. I’m not going to do it, although I do have the first 15,000 words of 2084 on a hard drive somewhere, and it is extremely tempting to finish it. Because some of it is predicated on ideas not entirely dissimilar to this. 

Manda: The whole thing just seems to me very, very poorly thought out. But it may be I’m just not listening to the right podcasts about this, and they have actually thought about it in great depth. And they are, in fact, going to create a world with total equity, where value flows freely on a horizontal basis. I doubt it though. So if you want a fairly brutal collapse prognosis, head off and listen to Indy Johar on The Wild. But then, let’s get together and imagine how we could make things different. Because as I said near the top, if we all committed ourselves in service to life, how would the world be? If we all decided here, now, that our absolute priority was a world with clean water, clean air, clean soil, clean connections within and between ourselves and between ourselves and the web of life. If 8.5 billion of us did that now, capitalism would be over by tomorrow, or at the very least, would be so transformed and transfigured that I don’t think we’d call it capitalism anymore. The point of capitalism is to accumulate capital. It’s the commodification of land, labour and capital itself. Go and find Polanyi if you want to read that in more detail. I don’t recommend it, it’s quite hard going. But the  commodification of stuff, of people, of our energy, of our time, all predicated on the trauma culture’s concept that we are individual, that we are separable from the web of life, is the problem of our culture.

Manda: So how do we reverse this? How do we get to a point where understanding that we are not separate from the web of life, that we never have been and we never can be, and that behaving as if we are is the problem that is driving us over the edge of the cliff. How do we get to that being a reality that we live by? Something that is so deeply embedded in the marrow of our bones that it is the absolute foundation from which we live. How do we get to that? Being where we’re at, rather than just being an idea that we bandy around and tell ourselves needs to be a thing? This is the question for now, and I don’t have answers for you. I have questions for myself. I have ways that I’m trying to live. Trying to wake up each morning and ask the web of life what do you need of me and trying to hear the answers. And they don’t always come straight away. Any Human Power was launched at the end of last May, that’s the most recent novel that I published if you’re new to the podcast. And I have been asking every single day since then, ‘what do you want of me?’ I’ve been looking hard at writing other novels. I’ve been putting ‘out of office’ responses on my email saying, please go away and don’t bother me because I’m writing a new book.

Manda: And actually, I was trying to write a new book and it wasn’t happening. I was going in circles, and it felt like beating my head over a brick wall. Which is quite often how a novel begins, so I wasn’t necessarily stopping, but it wasn’t feeling very good. And then, out of the blue, in the gap between the solstice and the end of the year came two potential other openings, other doorways that are absolutely things that I can do, that probably only I can do can do, and that I could do fairly well if I really put my mind to it. And I don’t know where these doorways exactly lead. They’re both grant applications, and two separate groups and I are putting ourselves wholly into fulfilling these. And who knows? I don’t know where they’re going to go, but I think the process of doing them is really, really important. And so I am throwing myself into that. And this time last year I didn’t know these existed. This time last month I didn’t know they existed. So I am offering this as an example of the fact that we need to ask the questions without presupposing that we know the answers. I thought what was mine to do was to write a sequel to Any Human Power, and I’m not writing that off; it may yet be something that I do, but it’s not what I’m doing right at this moment.

Manda: So finding what’s ours to do is a process, not an end point. And committing to the process is what matters more than anything else. We recently held the gathering Dreaming Your Year Awake, and one of the things that really became clear to me on this was understanding yet again, how often we can get into the mindset that if I find the right job or the right partner, or if I step out of the existing relationship that isn’t working. Or if I find where to live or tick a number of other boxes, then I will be able to commit to the world, and then everything will be fine, and then everything will change around me. And I am not immune to this. Anyone who has worked with me for any length of time knows I have been dreaming of a shamanic monastery for a long time, and I still think it’s a worthwhile endeavour, and I still think it would help a whole group of us to connect with the world in different ways. But I’m not holding my breath waiting for this to magically materialise, for everything to be effortless, for somebody else to make it happen. Because I definitely don’t have the bandwidth at the moment; this is not the fulcrum around which my world turns.

Manda: I wake up every morning, I do my morning ceremony, I commit myself in service to life and I do the best that I can for this, the commitment in service to life, to colour everything that I do. And I am absolutely far from perfect. And I make an enormous number of mistakes. This is the knife edge we all walk. We endeavour to be the best that we can be, to do the best that we can. And when we fail, we fall off the knife edge. And as soon as we notice, we scramble back on again. And the only thing I can say from years, from decades of practising this, is that I may notice slightly sooner when I fall off the knife edge. And once in a while, I notice when I’m about to fall off the knife edge and don’t open my mouth and say whatever it was I was about to say, or do whatever it was I was about to about to do. And so balancing becomes a little easier. And so what I am suggesting for anybody listening is that you ask yourself what happens, what would it feel like if I were to commit myself in service to life here and now? If everything that I did, from brushing my teeth in the morning, to taking out the bins, to closing the curtains, to having a shower, to taking the kids to school, to doing the job that perhaps doesn’t feel as if it’s completely changing the world. If I did every single one of these in service to life, how would I feel? And what I think is that the world would open up, and the possibility of feeling generosity and compassion and joyful curiosity (the three pillars of the heart mind that we talk about in the Accidental Gods membership), feeling these would be easier. And if you’re already doing this, please let me know and let me know how it feels. And yes, my email in-tray is massively overflowing and I may not get back to you, but I guarantee I will at least read it. So that’s the inner work: committing and service to life, seeing where it takes us. Committing to the three pillars of the heart-mind: gratitude, compassion, joyful curiosity. Seeing where these take us in the world. I think there’s some useful outer work that we can also do. If it is the case that our experiment with democracy, flawed as it was, is now over, then what can we do? I genuinely think that it is over. I don’t think there will be another free and fair election so much as there ever was in the US. There may be elections four years from now, but I suspect they will be nominative rather than determinative. The US will learn from Putin. They will decide what percentage they want to get. Putin reputedly and famously wanted to get 82% at the last election. I don’t know why. Useful number? And they will decide what percentage they want to get and they will get it.

Manda: And I strongly suspect that the same will happen in the UK, because the people in power do not understand that the old system is gone. They won’t make the changes that they could make to stop the same thing happening in the UK. And then who’s going to stand against a US Russian empire that spreads from Dublin to Dublin? The Russian Empire famously and openly wanted to stretch from Dublin to Vladivostok, and now the US and Russia have united it will stretch from Vladivostok to Vladivostok or Dublin to Dublin, and I’m not sure that Europe will be able to hold out against that. So what happens if we have the techno fascists and the christofascists and the just plain fascists all united together, endeavouring to own everybody and everyone? At least within what used to be the Western educated, industrial, rich, democratic nations, and now will just be Western, slightly educated, technocratic, and some people will be very rich and the rest will be very, very, very poor. I don’t know the answer to that. I don’t know what China and Asia and Africa will do. What I do know is that we exist in a hyper complex system, and these are not predictable. So I suggest we start asking ourselves some really defining questions pretty quickly. And Dark Matter Labs, again, have come out with a very interesting paper called Governing Tomorrow; outlining the long arc of governance.

Manda: And they say: ‘we define governance as the capacity of a society or population to self-regulate, to minimise externalities’. And that’s an economic term that means all of the things we choose to ignore in our race towards extracting value from things. So basically, all of the pollution and destruction and social horror that arises from the colonialism of value, that is capitalism. So we’ll start again: We define governance as the capacity of a society or population to self-regulate, to minimise externalities (I would say they need to be zero) and to terminate self-destructive generative cycles. All the while maximising optionality, which they define as the freedom to pursue diverse futures without being locked into singular paths. That’s the opening of quite a long blue paper, and I’m going to read you the first few paragraphs of the introduction, and I have put a link in the show notes, because this one I think is worth reading up to a point. It says 

Manda: We are living through a profound transformation in how we understand, enact and experience governance. The inherited systems of industrial era governance, centralised, hierarchical and optimised for predictability, are straining under the weight of contemporary realities. (I’ll pause there and say I would say they have broken or are breaking in real time). Going back to the paper: A world characterised by exploding sovereignties, radical plurality, structural uncertainty and economic paradigms rooted in discovery, demands governance frameworks capable of operating with agility, adaptability and systemic intelligence.

Manda: This provocation (which is to say this paper) seeks to draw out a broader arc of governance transitions. An arc already becoming visible in experiments, initiatives and emergent practices across sectors, geographies and disciplines. This document does not describe the whole body of work in governance, but seeks to show and articulate an emergent, deep trajectory. At the heart of this transformation lies a fundamental question: how do we govern in a world where sovereignty is distributed, boundaries are porous and the pace of change defies linear control? I’ll stop there. I really do think this paper is worth reading, because the pace of change defying linear control is why the many different facets of fascism are not going to be able to do what they want. The pace of change defies linear control, and fascism is by definition constrained by and founded in linear control. One of the best definitions of fascism that I’ve come across recently is that it creates ‘in groups’ that are protected but not constrained, and outgroups that are constrained but not protected. And everybody who votes for it thinks they are part of the in-group, but quite fast find that in fact they are part of the outgroups and the inner in-group is fantastically small.

Manda: So I don’t know where we’re heading from here, but I do know that emergence is a thing. That hypercomplex systems are not predictable, and that everything that we do is predicated on who we are, on how we show up in the world. Faith and I were talking recently about the triplet from Oscar Meyer Casado talking to Nina Simons of Bioneers, and he said: conscience creates matter. Language creates reality. Ritual creates relationship. And we were unpicking this, remembering that he said it after 12 hours of ceremony that had started at 8:00 in the evening and gone through till eight the next morning. So he was speaking about it to people who had just undergone ceremony, which is another word for ritual. And who were deeply embedded in the experience of shifting consciousness. So we could unpick consciousness and matter and language and reality and ritual and relationship and what all of them mean, and I do not plan to do that here and now. What I do want to say is who we are is what matters above all else. Our being in the world is what shifts the nature of the world around us. If we come to the world with gratitude, with absolute compassion for ourselves and the living world, for all parts of ourselves; if we can approach everything with joyful curiosity, then the world becomes a different place.

Manda: I was deep in meditation yesterday asking a particular shamanic guide ‘what do you want of me?’ And what came back was approach the world with delight. And about halfway through the morning, I got an email that completely knocked me off balance and I was in a very, very disordered state for the rest of the day. And somewhere around the evening, I remembered being asked and invited to approach the world with delight. And it changed everything. It changed my sense of balance, it changed my sense of perspective, it changed my sense of what was possible and what doors were open. How we show up is how the world is around us. So I’m going to stop now and leave you with that. The one last thing I would say is holding our breath till the next election, and hoping that the people that we like and we approve of get into power, is not what we need just now. It’s not worth working towards. It’s not going to happen. And even if the people we liked and who would have let us sleep easier in our beds had got into power, that system was not fit for purpose, is not fit for purpose, will never be fit for purpose, if that purpose is the continuation of complex life on Earth. And as I said in Oxford a week ago, that’s setting the bar really low. We can do better than this. We can be so much better than this. We can be the future humans that Chris Bache dreamed of in his long, deep journeys into other realities. But it starts with us committing everything that we do and everything that we are in service to life.

Manda: So please, if that means anything to you, just do it. See how life feels. And when it doesn’t feel good, come back to it, come back to it, come back to it. This is the journey. This is the best that we can be. And I really look forward to sharing the journey with you, on the podcast, in the membership and everywhere else out in the world. So let’s see what we can build. The old system is breaking. We are the green shoots who can arise. We are the ones who can lay the foundations for a future that we would be proud to leave to the generations that come after us. Let’s make it happen, everybody. And yes, we will be back at the normal time with an actual conversation with an actual guest. In the meantime, thanks to Caro C for the music at the head and Foot, to Caro and to Alan Lowles of Airtight Studios for the production. To Lou Mayor for the video, to Anne Thomas for the transcripts, to Faith for all of the conversations that keep us moving forwards. And as ever, an enormous thanks to you for listening. If you know of anybody else who wants to think about committing themselves in service to life, then please do send them this link. And if you have time to like, review and subscribe to us on the podcast app of your choice, it really does make a difference to the algorithms. And we really are enormously grateful. So that’s it for now. See you next week. Thank you and goodbye.

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