In Conversation

Manda: Hey people, welcome to Accidental Gods. To the podcast where we believe that another world is still possible and that if we all work together, there is still time to lay the foundations for that future that we would be proud to leave to the generations that come after us. I’m Manda Scott, your host and fellow traveller in this journey into possibility. And it is becoming increasingly apparent to all of us, I think, that the current system is not fit for purpose. It is doing exactly what it was always designed to do, which is to shovel wealth and value and power from the bottom of a pyramid to the dark triad at the top. And that pyramid is both human and more than human. So given this, if we are in the midst of what Amitav Ghosh called the Great Derangement, what tools do we have to help us shape a system that would actually be fit for purpose? Who are our elders and what can they teach us? How do we learn to listen to our heart’s desire and shape the communities of place and passion and purpose that will allow us to emerge into a different culture? We have two guests this week, and they both live and work at the heart of a global movement for cultural change.

Manda: Looby Macnamara is co-founder of the Cultural Emergence Movement. She’s an author, a designer, a gardener, a song leader, a mother and an artist. She has written four influential books, including People in Permaculture and Cultural Emergence. And she has a new one coming out in the 1st of September, called Design Adventures; Discover a Creative Framework for Effective Change. She is also the creator of the CEED Card Deck (cultural Emergence, empowerment and design). And with her partner Chris, Looby runs Applewood Permaculture Centre in Hereford, UK, where they facilitate courses and demonstrate permaculture both land and people.

Manda: Leona Johnson, host of the Connection Matters podcast, which is brilliant, you definitely want to listen, is a transformational Life coach, connection facilitator and guide dedicated to personal growth, cultural emergence and regenerative ways of being. She has spent decades exploring how we heal the crisis of disconnection within ourselves, in our relationships, and in the world around us. Through her work in nature, connection, rites of passage, life coaching, and cultural emergence, she supports people to step into connected self-leadership and what she calls everyday spirituality. Practical, embodied ways of living with depth, purpose and alignment. Leona co-hosts the Peace Course with Looby, and we’ll talk about that in the podcast. And online with John Young she runs the Connection Matters leadership program, nature quests around the world, and children, nature and spirituality courses. At the heart of her work is a simple and powerful message: When we remember our interconnectedness with ourselves, each other, and what she calls the other than human world, then we step into our fullest potential and create the conditions for a thriving world. Which is exactly what we’re here for.

Manda: These two transformational women are part of a growing movement designed to shift the entire foundation of our culture. What happens if we stop being the hamsters in the wheel of modernity and instead become the lively, inspiring, inspired, and connected individuals that we could be? This is our birthright. What happens if we step into it? All of us. So in this episode, we explore the nature of cultural emergence. What is it? How do we get there? What are the values that could underpin this new culture? And what are the real, grounded, practical ways each of us can begin the journeys that shift ourselves and each other into a new way of being. So here we go. People of the podcast. Please do welcome Looby Macnamara and Leona Johnson of Cultural Emergence and so much else.

Manda: Leona and Looby, welcome to the Accidental Gods podcast. So because we have a three person team today, we’ll go to Leona first. Leona, how are you and where are you on this glorious spring day?

Leona: I am in the north of England today, Hebden Bridge, my home, having just been in a very, very wet Spain for two weeks. So I’m really, really grateful for the blue skies and crispness of this morning. It’s gorgeous outside.

Manda: How did I not know you were in Hebden Bridge? My aunt used to live in Todmorden when I was a kid, so I spent a distressing amount of time in Hebden Bridge. And it’s gorgeous. Big steep hills and grey houses, but really lovely people. Alrighty. So Looby, how are you and where are you this glorious spring morning?

Looby: Well, certainly the sunshine is helping my mood and my energy levels, so I’m feeling pretty good this morning and I am not far from you manda. I’m in the borderland between Wales and England, in Herefordshire, in the UK and my home, which is Applewood Permaculture Centre. I’m enjoying spring here.

Manda: Yeah, it’s glorious actually. It’s much easier to feel equanimity at the state of the world when the glory of the sun is up there. If it lasts for more than a week, I start panicking about the fact we haven’t had any rain, which is something to do with the nature of watching the land and seeing how it goes. So we have so many inspiring things that you two do together that we really want to bring to the world today. So Looby, cultural emergence is what unites you and Leona. Tell us to begin with what it is and what brought you to it.

Looby: Well, it is a whole toolkit for change. It’s got practices and principles. It’s also a growing global movement. So lots of people are getting engaged from all over the world. And we’re currently working on translating the CEED deck, which is the cultural emergence, empowerment and design deck, which is a deck that I created to distil all the tools into bite sized chunks.

Manda: Show us, for the people on the video. So the CEED deck is a card deck. So if you happen to be on YouTube, you can see it. And if you’re not, we will put a picture of that in the show notes on the website page.

Looby: Yeah that’s great. So it’s a card deck, which kind of distills all the wisdom from my book Cultural Emergence. And so maybe we’ll play with it a bit later in the podcast.

Manda: Yes. What are you translating it into?

Looby: Oh, well, we put the call out for who wants to translate it, just on my newsletter. And we had something amazing, like 19 different languages, people saying, yes, I want it in Hungarian, I want it in Scottish Gaelic, I want it in like French, Portuguese and Hebrew. Someone’s trying to work on a Hebrew and Arabic bilingual translation in there. So that’s in process at the moment, so that’s very alive. So it’s a global movement as well as of people using this toolkit. And the, the toolkit itself evolved and the whole project evolved between a collaboration with myself and Jon Young, who’s over in the States and founded the Healers movement, which Leona can probably share a bit more about because that’s her journey into this as well. And we came together and I had already written People and Permaculture, which again I can show to people.

Manda: Well done, you are organised!

Looby: I happen to have them around me at all times. So we came together. I’d already written People and Permaculture and then someone had read that who collaborated with Jon and said, you two really should get together and do something together. And so we said, okay, well, let’s do a course together and see what happens. His work is really about nature connection and cultural repair. How do we create cultural repair so that we all are nature connected? And then we said, well, actually, we could just kind of work with what I normally do and what you normally do, and that’s all together, or we could go into the space in between and grow something new from this collaboration. And that was really an exciting thing that we did that we said, yeah, okay, let’s try this. And then the whole framing of Cultural Emergence came out of that, and then out of that framing the whole toolkit evolved over a few years, which then I put into into the book and the card deck. And I have really been investing in the project and the growth and collaborating with people like Leona, bringing them in and their wisdom in, to harvest more collective wisdom to help grow the movement. So that’s where it came from and we can explore culture and emergence more, but that’s the basics.

Manda: Excellent. Thank you. So Leona, Looby’s given us a bit of a framework of cultural emergence, and Jon Young bringing you two together. What was it that enabled him to see that you were going to be a key part of this partnership? What do you bring? And how did you get to it?

Leona: Well, the way I came into working with Looby was actually started whenever I became really interested in what was going on in the work that I was doing as a social worker, the work that I was doing in the world where I could see a need for change. I was really feeling this crisis of disconnection all around me. Both personally and within the circles that I was operating and in the wider world. Not that the solutions weren’t available, but that the problem was the people. And not that the people were the problem, actually, but that we had somehow lost our way. I had a longing for belonging. When I was young, I used to say to my mum ‘I feel homesick’. And she didn’t understand what I was saying, but there was this sense of a need for something that was bigger than myself, and a frame and a way of knowing what’s going to happen next. And it took me on a journey of looking for ways that we can find deeper connection in the everyday. And that led me from social work to forest school to ecopsychology, to rites of passage and life initiation. And along that way, I picked up the work of Jon Young and the eight shields, which is a model for creating the optimum conditions for connection.

Leona: It’s a model that enables people to work with the cycles of life in order to find a natural flow in designing events, designing the ways we live, designing the ways that we understand cycles, seasons, needs in groups and beyond. And it was the first thing that I found that really spoke to me of both practical and connection based work, where the language was more about connection to self, connection to each other, and connection to the other than human world. And then through this, I first read the amazing book that Looby wrote, People and Permaculture. And that was like my really exciting Bible, because Looby had synthesised so many things that I was interested in; systems thinking and the work that reconnects, and all these ways of understanding how we could live better together as people. And then through the years, I became more familiar with the work that Looby’s been cultivating through time, and her book Cultural Emergence came into being. And through our mutual connections, we then began starting to work together as the co-facilitators of the Peace, Empowerment and Cultural Emergence Program, which we do annually now. Which is a really beautiful way of experiencing an embodied culture of peace and emergence, with an understanding of what the principles of cultural emergence can bring us.

Manda: Excellent. Thank you. Just before we move to Looby and look at those principles of cultural emergence, give me a concept of the time scale. How long have you two been working together and how far before that, Leona, did you connect with Jon Young’s work?

Leona: So Looby and I will be running our fourth annual program. We also have run online programs together in that time. About three years before that, we met at the Art of Mentoring program, which is one of the programs that develop the Eight Shields as a model for working. And it’s an embodied experience, a camp. It’s now evolved from the Art of mentoring camp in the UK to be called the Nature Culture Connection Camp, which is happening again this year, which is also where I bumped into you last year, which was fabulous. But yeah, I’ve been working with the eight shields for about ten years and the eight shields has been something that’s underpinned the business that I was part of founding, which is a nature connection business in the north of England; Live Wild community interest compan. I’ve now resigned as director of it, but it runs amazing and beautiful programs and has led to this work that we’re doing now, which is more specifically around cultural emergence and how to create and be part of a culture that speaks the language that is needed so that we can live differently.

Manda: Right. Yes. Very thrutopian. Thank you. Okay, so Looby, just before we go to the framework of cultural emergence, which I want to know more of and how it works and what the language is that helps us to live differently. Because words frame who we are. How long have you been working with the Jon Young work and everything that goes with it?

Looby: So my book People in Permaculture came out in 2012, and then 2015/16 was when I got connected personally with Jon Young, although I had already been familiar with his work before that. But that was when we came into collaboration with each other, and that was actually when we moved to Applewood Permaculture Centre. And our first course that we did together was a week after we moved in here. So my journey with his work has been very interwoven with my journey with Applewood Permaculture Centre, and being on the land here, being part of the ecosystem and the web of life that is Applewood. And so it was an amazing introduction into the deep nature connection and being here and listening to the landscape in a really expansive way and feeling part of the web of life here. So I can’t kind of separate those two strands in my life; cultural emergence and Applewood came into being in the same time in 2016. And then I wrote my book in 2020, which there was a convenient pandemic that meant that writers could really focus.

Manda: Everybody had some lockdown time.

Looby: I could really focus on writing. And then, yeah, the card deck came out in 2023.

Manda: Right. Again, probably birthed during the pandemic, which was an incredibly fertile time in many ways. Horrible though it was.

Looby: Yeah. So I sort of say it’s the conspiracy of all the writers that wanted to finish their books.

Manda: Let’s not. We’ll end up with people telling us we killed lots of people in order to finish our books. I don’t think that’s exactly how it happened.

Looby: Let’s not go down there.

Manda: All right? So let’s stay with Looby. Tell us more about the language that will take us forward to something else. I’m interested in how it’s evolved. I’m interested in how it landed previously. And I think we booked this podcast six months ago. Six months ago, the world felt somewhat saner than it feels now, and I’m kind of interested in how it’s evolving and what the spirits of the land are telling you about where we might go. But let’s start on solid ground with the framework of cultural emergence first.

Looby: Yeah. So I think what I’d like to do now is share the poem that I wrote about cultural emergence, which actually grew over a nine month period from the starting of like, let’s do a course together and seeing our overlap of culture and then growing from there. What does it mean to come into this emergence space and co-create from there? And then the whole premise is of cultural emergence, that actually the problems we’re facing at the moment in this world are cultural, including climate change, including social justice problems. They’re cultural problems at the heart. And if we shift culture, then we can shift the problems into the solutions. So this poem emerged from this time and it will kind of set the scene for the bigger vision as well:.

Looby: This cultural emergency calls for cultural emergence. A breaking through, a breaking free of cultures of isms and schisms. Of gun culture, war culture, rape culture, fear culture, greed culture, waste culture, chemical culture. Of corporations controlling our culture, polluting our culture. Peeling back the layers of oil, smothering our culture. Can we connect our roots into the earth and reach out to fellow beings and show our care? Can we cultivate a responsibility culture? Friendship culture, kindness Culture, justice Culture, safety culture, peace culture? A culture of innovation, resilience and hope. Can we name and create the culture we want? Visionary, regenerative culture. Can we shift our priorities, phobias, patterns, parameters, opinions, assumptions? Can we bend or bury our beliefs? Will we? Will we reflect, connect, respect the collective? Direct our objections to the system that promotes disconnection. Challenge not blame, name and reframe. Shift our perspective to gain a directive that allows us to be receptive to the interconnected web vibrating with every step. Disrupt the pattern to awaken and challenge and begin to unravel cords of conditioning, to release the story and create space for visioning. Allowing for the possibility of the seemingly impossible to motivate and invigorate the genius inside of us. Activate and initiate, appreciate and celebrate. Collaborate and participate to co-create and facilitate the desire to germinate and take control of our fate. Moving away from this state of emergency into a state of fertile cultural emergence, where we use emergence to support emergence. With the divergence and convergence of minds creating designs. With the intelligence of cooperating hearts to give us a start on this path of empowerment. To bring fulfilment and deep nourishment it requires commitment to trusting the process and opening to osmosis, of the mystical and magical, to be alchemical with the mathematical. For practical and logical action, to bring connection and emerge the solutions for manifestation of personal and global transformation.

Manda: Wow. Thank you. That’s a whole podcast just in itself, isn’t it, really? We could go line by line and explore it.

Looby: Yeah, so within the poem there are some of the tools embedded, like one of the principles here of ‘allow for the possibility of the seemingly impossible’. That is one of the principles of cultural emergence. And I think, yeah, we could do a whole podcast on just that principle.

Manda: Well, I was going to say which bit stands out for you. Because I’ve written down some of the bits that stood out for me, but let’s go with that. Go a little deeper, Looby, and then we’ll come to Leona for what stood out for her.

Looby: I was looking for the card of that one. So we’ve got ‘allowing for the possibility of the seemingly impossible’.

Manda: Oh, nice. So for the people who are not watching the video, that’s a heart in green, basically.

Looby: And it’s an impossible. It’s like a Mobius strip.

Manda: Yeah, it’s a Mobius heart. Clever.

Looby: And on the back of the card it says: Give voice to your heart’s desire, widen parameters of possibility. Stay engaged with searching for solutions.

Manda: So before you go into that, what is your heart’s desire that you would give voice to now?

Looby: Wow. I mean, so many things. I think the thing that just popped into my head when you asked that question was about feminine leadership and raising up the feminine voice and women’s rights, which we’re really seeing is a hot topic and something that is being eroded around the world at the moment in shocking ways. So that was the thing that popped into my head when you said that. And so giving voice to that and then widening the parameters of possibility, what does that actually mean to us? And how can we really extend those possibilities? And then the next point is staying engaged with searching for solutions, rather than saying, well, that’s impossible. That won’t happen. To actually saying, well, how could it happen? What would it look like? Let’s stay visioning. Let’s not just write that off as as an impossible dream so we don’t even bother looking for the solutions.

Looby: It’s like, okay, actually that is possible. How will that happen? And just to take it back into a smaller scale, maybe more relatable example, was I had repetitive strain injury on my right arm. A very writer’s injury, and I was just kind of living with and just trying to sort of manage it. And then it was like, actually, what would it look like if I really imagined that it was possible for it to be cured? How would I then be looking for the solutions? Rather than just accepting it as the status quo and just trying to live with it and work around it? It’s like, how could I actually engage with that possibility of it going and being cured? So then I took it into the design process, the design web, which we can come to later.

Manda: No, tell us now, because I want to go to Leona in a moment and take it elsewhere, and we’ll never remember to come back.

Looby: Okay. Yeah. So the Design web is a framework which I created while writing People and Permaculture. It’s a non-linear, holistic framework that explores patterns and limits, and you create a design from it. And just by entering into a design is looking for solutions and finding ways to move through things. It’s a very emergent process because we’re designing with people. So people are not the same as apple trees. They have emergent properties when you engage with designs.

Manda: Apple trees have emergent properties.

Looby: They do.

Manda: But go on, just really specifically, talk to us what you did with your RSI, because I think this is really interesting to people. You didn’t accept, Probably Western medicine would say you either take steroids or that’s it, basically lose the use of your right arm. And you said, no, there’s a possibility of healing. If I open to the possibility of healing, then the world becomes a different place by my opening to it. I’m suddenly aware of reading Karen Barad and Bayo Akomolafe and the fact that actually reality is what we make it to be, in ways that are really hard to get our heads around. And I’m also remembering Oscar Miro Quesada of consciousness creates matter, language creates reality, ritual creates relationship. And just by the language of ‘healing is possible’ your reality shifts. And without getting into fake quantum physics, which really annoys me, how did you go about a design process of changing your relationship with your RSI and what happened?

Looby: So it has 12 anchor points. So letting go of it, working through it, what limits were there, what limits did I need to put in? So like okay where isn’t there a limit? Where am I pushing through and where do I need to actually take a break? So pause, looking at different ways to exercise. So going to the needs of what what do I need in terms of exercise to strengthen or to loosen. How to use my left arm more. So that was one of the needs, to sort of bring more balance in. And also really through this process became aware of how much it was a cultural problem as well. So when I say personal problems are also cultural problems, it’s like how much do we have to use our right arm? And I think anyone that is left handed will be like, yes, I already know that. But for me being right armed, it was just like, oh, actually, now I’m trying to use my left arm more I’m really seeing how right handed dominant the world is created. That constantly that’s the automatic hand that gets used.

Looby: So I went through these 12 anchor points and I was doing it on the back of a calendar, because they also conveniently have 12 pages on them. And then I realised that all the paintings in the calendar were painted by people with their feet. People that didn’t have hands. So that was just a real moment for me of like, wow. And so appreciation really came in and really appreciating my hands for all the things they do, and really sending that appreciation to my arms. And doing fun things with my hands as well. So giving them an opportunity to express be joyful and not just working. And yeah, it really, really, really shifted my Relationship with it. And also, one of the things that is really important when I do designs is about naming the design. So I didn’t name the design Repetitive Strain Injury because then I’m just repeating it, I named it Regenerative Arm Movement.

Manda: How clever!

Looby: And so that was what I kept on bringing in; regenerative arm movement, regenerative arm movement. And my awareness has come to it very differently. So now the moment I feel it I’m like, okay, stop, intervene, do something different. Stretch it, make sure I bring in the yoga so I’m more able to catch it early and intervene rather than sort of ignoring it, pushing through and letting it grow into a bigger problem. Then it’s just like, ah, stop, you can’t do anything but stop. So it’s shifted it. And I’ve not had acute issues with it since and that’s been several years now. Yeah.

Manda: Right. That is so interesting. I assumed you were going to say so I found this practitioner who did, I don’t know, acupuncture, and somebody else did homeopathy and somebody else did herbs and somebody else who did Pilates, Tai chi, whatever. And actually it was much more about, I’m hearing, I think, awareness. And allowing your arm to have its own voice within your own internal and external systems. It’s really interesting.

Looby: Yes. Really listening to it and really changing my relationship with my arm and therefore with the injury and repatterning in there. Yeah. Pattern is a really big, important, anchor point in the design web. Yeah.

Manda: And finding the technology. Because something similar, way back when I was writing the Boudica books, I started mousing left handed, and in the end had to find an ergonomic left handed mouse that would actually work with the software on my computer. And brushing my teeth left handed and all of those things. And you’re right, it changes the balance. And in the days when I was writing it transformed my writing. I had no idea how much I was imposing my right handedness on the consciousness that I was engaging with when I was writing, as in the consciousness of the horse or the pony, until I wasn’t. And it was really interesting.

Looby: That’s fascinating. Yes, because I use my left hand for my mouse as well. And I do find when I’m writing and I’m typing, it’s bringing in both sides of my brain. Especially if I’ve got music on and a sit stand desk is also been one of my crucial things.

Manda: Gosh, we could do a whole other podcast on ergonomics of writing, but let’s not. We need to talk to Leona for a while. Leona, I want to ask you as well, what is your heart’s desire? It’s probably evolved since we asked Looby a few minutes ago, but if you were to express that now, What is your heart’s desire in this moment?

Leona: Well, what I feel personally, what I feel and see around me is a need for coming back into what I call connected self leadership. A way where we start to live in a way that enables us to recognise our interconnectedness with the other than human world and with each other. And what I’d love to see is cultures, communities, families that really take seriously the stages of life. Really take seriously their commitment to going out and listening to the land and being with the land, and learning to understand themselves in relation to nature as a mirror for our growing consciousness. Because I think we’re learning and growing so much. We’re in such incredible times right now, where we have the power, the availability, the accessibility to learn anything we want to learn.

Manda: Right. Well, learn with our heads anything we want to learn. But you’re talking about learning with what I would call heart mind.

Leona: And I also believe this is growing because of the accessibility that we have to teachers, ways of being, ways of understanding, which isn’t separate from. It is an ancient way of knowing. And it is something that through our human animal body, we have a capacity to do at a much a deeper level than what we get told we can do through our education systems and through society. But actually, we now are being brought the tools through many ways, through people who are relearning themselves and remembering and coming in and listening to what the world wants. And through other cultures, sharing and bringing their ways of being. And through models that are bringing and helping us to do simple things that enable us to live in a different way. And that different way is about holding intentional space for ourselves and for each other.

Manda: Yes.

Leona: It’s also about recognising that there is so much to learn from what we’ve once known, through other ways of being, but also through what we now know; through biohacking and human optimisation and all the things that come with the life coaching world that I’m in, which tell us what ceremony and ritual have told us all along. They’re sort of the science backed versions of what connection cultures will have taught us all along. That gratitude matters, that listening matters, that being together in natural environments and with the elements. And at times of transition, we pay attention to what wants to come in next. And for me, that’s about creating space. And it’s also about visioning. You know, one of the phrases from the poem is ‘create space for vision’. Visioning, disrupt the pattern, challenge, and awaken. It’s about being in a place where we can start to dream in the world that doesn’t exist right now, because if it already existed, we’d already be doing it.

Manda: We’d be having a different conversation. Yeah. Gosh, there’s so much in that. Talk to me a little bit more about the life stages that you see existing, and how we could step into those more fully.

Leona: I want to talk about it in a way that isn’t connected to any particular tradition, because obviously we all have a life stage. We move from from baby to child to teen to young adult to childbearing age and beyond. And yet, I think the loss of rites of passage and recognition of those life stage transitions has contributed to somewhat of a meaninglessness to what’s next. But everything has a life cycle, doesn’t it? And if we understood as women the cycle of the moon and in relation to our bodies, better. You know, it’s really only in the last couple of years that I’ve really, really paid attention to that and noticed how differently I behave in that cycle. But also, I guess in relation to the times of year.

Leona: Each time of year. And this is some of the ways that we tune into using the eight shields as part of the ways of connecting to nature, is recognising the new beginnings of spring and the setting of the sun and the energy of the the autumn and the harvesting. You know, all the ways that that come with the qualities of a time of year we can apply to cycles within cycles, within cycles.

Manda: Okay. And that makes a lot of sense. One of the things we lean into quite heavily on the podcast is, first of all, the concept of initiation culture versus trauma culture, which I’m sure you are familiar with. Because in my world, what we’re trying to move towards is an initiation culture. And Bill Plotkin also has life stages. And and he divides them quite cleanly into childhood, adolescence, adulthood, elderhood, and two stages within which. And in his view, a lot of our dominant culture, the hegemonic, Western educated, industrial rich, and until the 20th of January at least notionally democratic. The WEIRD culture is locked in early adolescence. And we could get to be 110 and still basically be in early adolescence, because we don’t have the elders to help us to find the meaning in life. And finding the meaning of life, in his view, is part of the shift from adolescence to adulthood. When we are adult, we know who we are. We know why we’re here. We have that sense of being, belonging, becoming that is, I think, the coming home. Earlier on you said that you told your mother that you were homesick. And I think part of the home that we want to come to is that place where we can land and think, this is what I’m here for. And my understanding of eight shields work is that you are able to help people to grow up effectively, to give them a sense of rites of passage and a sense of being, belonging, becoming. Leona, can you talk a little bit more about that? And then we’ll come back to Looby. If I’m right and if I’m not, then say so.

Leona: Part of what we would call an embodied experience of a culturally emergent culture, community, that might be underpinned by the eight shields, that might be underpinned by the principles of cultural emergence, would be that there are spaces and times created within that that enable people to address the different things that might come up. And part of that is to acknowledge grief, to acknowledge the cycles of death and rebirth, to acknowledge the need for change and honouring change and that change happens and that it isn’t always a terrible, awful thing. Obviously tragedy happens, but actually if we had a more healthy relationship and understanding and ways of processing. If we had the tools, the practices, ways of helping us to process change as and when it happens, as part of an inherent understanding that this is part of life, then a lot of what people are a lot calling trauma or challenge that people are experiencing, wouldn’t be half as destructive, it wouldn’t seep out sideways, it wouldn’t infect relationships in such negative ways. Because we would be part of an understanding that that grief is normal and natural, that it can be held, that it is a process, it’s not a way of being. That it changes and that healthily doing grief, creating spaces where that’s possible acknowledges the importance of it and the need for it, rather than the silencing of it,  which mostly I think we see. And in these times, obviously there’s the normal and natural cycles of life which bring change, challenge, death, rebirth. But there’s also what’s going on around the world, which is bringing a huge amount of grief, whether we know it or not. Unprocessed grief, unprocessed stress, worry, anxiety, anxiousness. Because of the amount of information that we’re party to. Because of what we see that we never would have seen before. And because of the reality of the global carnage.

Manda: Yeah, exactly.

Leona: It’s a lot. It’s a lot for us. And I think, you know, having simple and healthy practices. So in an embodied experience of a gathering, the eight shields or one of our cultural emergence in person programs, we really aim to give people the tools to both connect just through the senses, through the body, through that opening. Remembering that we’re not just the mind, that we’re also the heart and the body and the interconnected spirit, if you want to use that word.

Manda: I do.

Leona: And that through those ways of knowing, we can resource ourselves. And we can also release and let go, and we can listen and be part of rather than trying to look at and long for connection to something other. And we also bring in these ways of being as humans that people have done for generations and do all over the world in many cultures, of singing and playing and being really much more of our wild self. And I think that these gatherings where we can experience just a little bit of that safety of knowing that there are elders who will catch if there’s any  discontent within the group, they will hold space for that. There are grief process throughout the period of time that you’re there. There is joy and and celebration each morning and every evening, the gathering of stories. And, you know, this is built into a culture that is regenerative and that should be and could be built into a culture that’s regenerative. And that’s what I would love to see more of.

Manda: Yes. Wouldn’t that be amazing? And I think I want to stay with you just for a moment. The eco psychology of this. It seems to me a number of things. We need to evolve. I have a new set of asks which are: clean air, clean water, clean soil. Clean, clear, courageous connections between all parts of ourselves, between ourselves and each other, and between ourselves and the web of life. And my feeling is that if everybody committed to those as their priorities, the world would be a different place within 24 hours. But we don’t have the tools; particularly the all parts of ourselves; ourselves each other, ourselves and the web of life. Most people fall over at each stage of that. Because our culture has all been about disconnection from ourselves, each other and the web of life. And there seems to be a narrative that is widespread in certain parts of the ‘yes, but we’ll never make it’ narrative, that says ‘the grief is overwhelming. Once I start to grieve, I will never stop’ and that grief and joy are mutually incompatible. And my personal experience is the more I open and let the grief and frankly the terror, those parts of me that are afraid and honour those and give them space and engage with them, the more I am also able to fall in love with the magic of being and the web of life, and be open to the web of life. And I wonder, with your experience as an eco psychologist and within the kind of life coaching realm, and within the cultural emergence, first of all, am I right? Or am I somehow off beam, that that grief and joy are not mutually exclusive, and that it’s possible to learn how to express both. That this is a relearning that this is actually an integral part of our birthrights as human beings. Do you wanna just riff off that?

Leona: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, really, I would say you can’t have one without the other. Because what happens when we open ourselves to the beauty and wonder and magic of what we’re part of, when we really, really connect to the tiniest ways of knowing and also the vastness of and majesty of the universe, we feel it. And then when things within that are disconnected and are seemingly continually disconnected, it hurts. A feeling person would feel that. But so much of us has closed down, to keep ourselves safe and in order to be able to function in the world that asks us and forces us to get up and get on no matter what, in order to survive.

Manda: Yeah. To ignore the cycles of the moon so that every day has to be exactly the same, regardless of the fact that we’re actually in a sine wave and then there’s eclipses and everything is changing. And yet we have got to somehow become this little automaton. Is that as much as it was? In my world it isn’t anymore. But then I have an enormously privileged life. Are most people still expected to behave exactly the same every day?

Leona: I have this, frustratingly to some people, positive outlook. Because what I’m seeing is more peoples recognition of… For example, 20 years ago yoga was quite radical, even ten. But there’s not really very many people now who don’t know what yoga is, but who haven’t even tried it, or mindfulness or meditation or presencing.

Manda: Or tai chi.

Leona: All of these things. There’s more of an understanding of the positive effects of all of these ways of being; presence and connection. And also, we weren’t meant to do things alone. And our lives have forced us to be separate and in our little bubbles, But actually what I’m hearing and seeing are groups and people searching for all of these different ways where they can come together in communities of purpose. And one of the things you know, that I do worry about is the amount of time we spend looking at screens and online. But one of the things I really love about that is the number of people that we get to meet all around the world from many different ways of being and cultures. You know, there is a certain demographic, it’s true that there’s a sort of certain demographic of people who can and do reach these courses. But at the same time, I’ve come to know lots of people through the cultural emergence online programs, through my Connection Matters membership program, which is, you know, group calls with people from all over. And and I love that. I’m just living my own life and I have children in mainstream school now. They didn’t used to be, they were always home ed, but now they’re in mainstream school. They’re doing fine. You know, they’ve had a lot of support and encouragement and nature connection throughout their lives and ways of being and access to connection. And I find that they’re healthy and I feel really fortunate to be alive now, because I feel like it’s that critical mass, isn’t it? Once there’s enough people who feel and believe and know that another world is possible, then actually we start to see it everywhere. And I see it everywhere. I choose to see it everywhere. And that’s part of which Wolf do you feed?

Manda: Right. Yes. And for people who don’t know it, very briefly before we go to Looby, just give us the wolf metaphor because it’s beautiful.

Leona: I read it again recently actually. So it really speaks to me. That there is an angry wolf. There’s a little girl who feels angry all the time, and she doesn’t know why she’s angry all the time. And she meets an elder on a hill who says, well, I used to see that angry wolf, but I also see this patient and happy and confident and thoughtful Wolf. And she says, but how do you know which one to to go with? How do you make one stronger than the other? And the elder said, well, choose which one you feed. Which one do you give time to? Which one do you spend time with? Which one do you choose to want to listen to? And they’re both there. But actually the one that I choose to feed is the one that enables me to see possibility everywhere.

Manda: Yes, my IFS self is going yes, but you need to honour the other one and help it to unburden and talk to it and give it space and not crush it and put it away. That the healing, the integration, the self integration comes from honouring all parts of ourselves. But yes, and and in the wider world as well. It seems to me we are now at a crisis point where the energies that feed on hate and despair and fear and terror and pain are being very well fed. But also actually when I connect into the web of life as best I can and feel the gratitude and compassion and the joyful curiosity, the web feels more alive now than it has ever done. And I think there are more people tapping in and feeding that, choosing to feed gratitude and compassion and joyful curiosity. And that is as much because they’re feeding the wolf of gratitude as well as the wolf of fear. So thank you. Perfect. Looby there is so much that we’ve talked about and so much that’s open and rich. And I really want to come back to cultural emergence and the concept of that, because it seems to me we are at a moment where the old hegemonic culture is actually being taken apart with a chainsaw. In metaphorical terms and actually not so metaphorical terms, things that we all believe to be true are being shown actually to be a part of a cultural assumption that is easily broken.

Manda: And yet you and I, all three of us, exist in a world where we understand systems thinking and complexity. And linear thinking says I pull lever A and event B happens. And complexity says the moment I approach lever A, B has moved. And pulling lever A will do an uncounted number of things that I cannot predict. And so what gives me hope is that however much those who want to control everything think they can pull lever and event B will happen, the one thing we can say for sure is that that’s not actually true. And the cracks are where the light gets in. And so in terms of cultural emergence, I really would like to explore how you are seeing and feeling the ripple effects of what’s happening with your courses, with the wider movement of all of these things moving out into the world, where are the green shoots? Where are the sparks of light that will become the tsunami that takes us to a tipping point of a different world? And if we were pouring all of our awareness and all of our language and all of our thinking into that world, what would be the new values that we would live by? Does that make sense as a question? And is it something that you’d happy to refresh?

Looby: Yes. Well, there’s lots in there. Let’s go to emergence for a while because that’s what you’ve just described there with the nonlinear world. And that is what gives me hope and that is what’s exciting. And emergence is all around us, so much so that we take it for granted  and so there are recipes for emergence as well, like the recipe of putting the ingredients of a cake together and then putting it into the oven. That is an emergent process, but we have parameters then of what will happen. So parameters of that emergence. Whereas if you give a cardboard box to a child to play with, their parameters of emergence are much wider than what would happen with a cake. And what we’re seeing now in the world is that the parameters of emergence are much wider, because the rules of the game seem to have changed. The powers that be in some places are changing the rules of the game. And so the the emergence is changing as well and the possibilities for that. And the organising that is happening is different. There is a different coming together of people. And going back to the cake, it’s actually the baking powder that literally gives rise to the cake. The smallest ingredient actually changes the whole cake. And if we think about that for ourselves, maybe we feel like we’re the smallest person or have the smallest impact, but we don’t actually know how that will change the entire system.

Manda: Yes, yes. Each of us is an acupuncture point, effectively, and we don’t know what the ripples might be.

Looby: Exactly. We don’t know who we might inspire. What effect our words have, what effect our actions have, where all of that empowerment and those ripples go. And also there are some recipes within that. So when we come together, like on the courses and people go, wow, this is amazing. What an amazing group of people! And it’s like, well, actually we’ve created the container where the best parts of people show.

Manda: Yeah, everybody’s amazingness came to the surface. And you have a self-selecting group of people who wanted to come in the first place. There’s a lot of conditions for making good cakes.

Looby: Exactly. So we’ve chosen good ingredients or good ingredients have come forth, and we have a good container for that. So the recipe is there and good processes that we use. Applewood is an amazing, is the wisest facilitator on the team as well. And the biggest Nurturer. So there are conditions that we’ve created for that positive fertile emergence. And so what we’re seeing at the moment is that there’s a lot of kind of different forces on people. There’s one, as we’ve talked about, that fear and that terror that and the Us and Them is happening really strongly. And then on the other side is the sense of like, NO! This can’t happen on our watch. Let’s organise, let’s resist, let’s change things, let’s vision differently, let’s empower ourselves, let’s empower other people. So both of those forces, I think are happening simultaneously. And connecting with what Leona was talking about with the wolves, it’s like where do we put our attention? Where do we encourage each other? And it connects and empower each other as well as empowering ourselves.

Manda: Okay. And that gives us two very clear branches. Shifting the energy slightly, I am looking at what’s happening in the US and I would say the US has now undergone an internal coup and is now an axis power and we have people in charge for whom violence is an option, and they’re using it. And you lead courses on peace. And I absolutely believe that if we’re going to emerge into a new system, that one of the core values has to be that power over is not an option. No problem is solved from the mindset that created it and the mindset of power over is what’s created the chaos we have just now. And yet, I remember a lot reading Starhawk’s book, the name of which currently escapes me. One of you will remember. Years ago, like back in the 90s. And she’s set up in California, there’s the people protecting the water and the people trying to take the water, which are the good guys and the bad guys. And it’s quite old paradigm thinking, but the end of the book is the people who believe in peace walking forward into the guns, saying, I love you. Rank after rank after rank after rank, until the people shooting decide not to keep shooting.

Manda: And that always struck me as that’s not how it works. I have never, at any point anywhere in the world, seen the people who enjoy killing other people decide it’s not a good idea just because they’ve shot enough. It doesn’t happen. Otherwise, there’d be a lot of living pheasants on our hill, frankly. And I wonder how we envision a peaceful way forward? And I’m asking both of you. Because I’m aware that I have just shifted the energy of this space, but it is a question I’m being asked a lot. What do we do when we believe absolutely there is a peaceful way forward, how do we shift the energy? How do we do the connecting to the Land, connecting to the web of life, in a way that feeds, let’s say, the wolf of regeneration and consensus and connection, in the face of a wolf that basically eats faces. Over to either of you, but Looby’s unmuted, so let’s go with Looby first.

Looby: Well it is a massive question, isn’t it? Her book was the Fifth Sacred Thing and yes, it is just such a massive, impossible question, going back to the allowing for the possibility of the seemingly impossible. And it can seem totally out of reach. Yeah, it’s a question that keeps me up at night and I don’t really have the answers. Of course, we don’t have the answers individually, we have the answers collectively, if we keep asking those questions and keep connecting. And it is a change of culture as well, because these people that are doing the violence, they are within the culture that allows that to happen. So that is where the the shift has happened now, the parameters for acceptable violence against women and minorities has expanded. So this is where I think really part of the toolkit is awareness of culture and to really extend that. Because we’ve used the word so many times and no one would probably have said, well, hold on a minute what do we mean by culture? Because it’s a word that is used all the time and yet when you try and explain it, then you sort of start going down well, it’s the country you’re part of or it’s the high culture of opera or something.

Looby: And it’s those things and a lot more. So my working definition of culture is that it is a complex, interconnected web of seen and unseen patterns of thinking, being, doing, and interacting. So how do we interact with the land? How do we interact with other people

Manda: And ourselves.

Looby: And how do we interact with ourselves? Yes. Ourselves and our own values. And one of the things that I think that many people don’t think of, people think that culture is ‘out there’, it’s something out there and immovable. But I like to take that complex web and say, well, actually, we each have our own individual complex web. We each have our individual personal culture that is like a mosaic of all the cultures we’re part of, or the macro and micro cultures we’re part of. And that we have responsibility for that personal culture to weed out the negative cultural conditioning, to water the healthy habits, to tend our own personal culture. And then that ripples out into all the other cultures we’re part of. In small ways or big ways. In our family culture, it’s a big way. In the bigger macro cultures, it’s a small way. But as we say, we don’t know where those ripples go.

Looby: So when we really pay attention to culture, then we can shift what are the technological solutions. So at the moment it’s like, oh, what are the technological solutions to climate change? But they’re still coming from the paradigms of extractivism. Electric cars are still coming from the paradigms of we’ll go and get the minerals from some country that will just mine and pollute communities from. And that’s okay because that’s ‘outside there’ but we’re doing our bit ‘in here’. So it hasn’t changed the paradigm that those technologies are coming from. And the politics hasn’t changed because it’s coming from the same cultural paradigms. So when we change culture, we can change politics, we can change language, we can change technology, we can change all of our interactions, we can change our agriculture. All of those things can change when we start shifting culture. Which is why I see it’s such an important thing for us to really expand our awareness and our language around and to start seeing how we can shift that.

Manda: Brilliant. Thank you. Okay, so, Leona coming to you. We’re heading towards the top of the hour. But I really want to get deep into shifting cultural paradigms, now. Because it seems to me this is what what we can do. And we know from the pandemic that our number of three spreads something all the way around the world. If each of us changes and talks to two other people, and their values shift, and they talk to to two other people and their values shift. Six weeks and the values of the world have shifted. So I’m interested in a number of things. What are the stories that we tell ourselves and each other about ourselves and each other that help us to shift the paradigm? And are there any other ways of really practically creating cultural emergence that people listening can do? Clearly they should all come in your course. But if we’re reaching tens of thousands of people, what narrative shifts are there? What behavioural shifts are there? And I think we tend to get into the okay, we just have to basically go back to living a medieval life, which nobody is going to do. So it’s not practical. But I think there’s conceptual shifts, ways of framing who we are and how we see ourselves, that are within reach. And then when we get there, we move another step. And I wonder what for you would be the early steps to give people.

Leona: Mhm. Thank you. Well I think one of the first ideas to play with is that rather than letting life happen to us, we have agency and choice. And when we see ourselves as creators, when we see ourselves with that potential, we live much more consciously, much more intentionally within our own environment. And that’s what starts to enable us to see the change that happens organically as soon as you start to do that. One of the simplest things is to look at how we’re choosing to live. How are you choosing to spend your time? Who are you choosing to spend your time with? How are you choosing to spend your money? Because we tell ourselves the story that we have to do these things a certain way because life demands it. We tell ourselves a story that we’re just stuck in the the rat race or the hamster wheel. But are we really? Are we really? And I don’t want to sound flippant, I absolutely recognise that for some people, life can be and is much more challenging than for others. But at each moment we have choice in how we respond. Rather than reacting to what comes, we have a choice in the moment. And that really comes down to building the muscle of presence, building the muscle of what we would call in cultural emergence, the core routines for connection. Those are a set of routines that enable us to start to learn how to listen to ourselves, how to notice more about what’s around us, and then how to create space in order to take the next steps consciously.

Leona: For example, one would be what we call a sit spot. So that is taking some time to visit a place repeatedly, the same place. And another core routine is opening the senses. So sensory awareness. So at a sit spot, we’re opening the senses and that enables us to come into our bodies. It enables us to let go of anything that’s happened that might need letting go of energetically or emotionally. And then we start to feel and notice things like the cycles of the day. What time is it? What do the birds do at that time? Who else is out and about in my community? I live in terraced houses and I love to go out in the evening at that time it’s kind of dusky and the bats start flying around and I can start to hear the human sounds slowly bubble down. But then there’s also one house that particularly wakes up at that time. And I used to feel a bit frustrated, I’d wish I lived in the middle of nowhere, but actually as I changed my story that we are nature and to love the place I’m in, I started to enjoy the signs of life and other people’s interactions with what they’re doing.

Leona: And actually do we choose to see ourselves as inherently basically good or basically bad? Do we go out with the intention for connection and trust and belief in the goodness of people? Or do we always put the barriers, the contraction and the resistance against being able to connect and see the good? And when you create more space, when you make choices about the kind of person you want to be, when you have a vision for a better way, then you start to see it when it happens. And more and more for me, when I’m working with people, that’s what we start with. We start with vision. Then we look at where we’re actually at, and then we look at how we’re going to get there. And everybody wants to live and choose and actually taking small steps can make massive changes in a short space of time.

Manda: Yes, yes. I was talking to Mark Fabian, who has written a book called Beyond Happy, that I thought was going to be another self-help book and actually, it’s much, much deeper than that. And that podcast will come out in a week’s time or so. But he talks about everybody at a core level needs agency, competence; so you have to be able to make choices, you need to feel you’re getting better at what your heart’s desire wants to be good at, and connection. To each other, to all parts of ourselves, to each other, to the web of life. He doesn’t say that, but that’s that’s my addition on the top. And that’s exactly what you’re talking about. Imagine a world where everybody got to choose and got to be better at what their heart really sang for. And were connected in the ways that we’ve described. It would be amazing. And perhaps again, I may be being overly optimistic here, but as I’m watching the social contract being destroyed; and not just in the US, our government over here is about to do appalling things. But communities will have to step up, I think. And if the government chooses to destroy the social contract, why would anyone else keep to it? What would we choose to create in our communities, now the requirement to just go and behave like an automaton or a hamster in a wheel is not there anymore?

Manda: It opens possibility if we can step into it. Though I did hear a therapist the other day say I can offer as much therapy as I like, but what people actually just need is money. And I think very quickly, we’re going to see what happens when the economy breaks down. And can we create some form of local flow of value. I noticed, this is an aside, we’re coming to Looby in a moment, but somebody pointed out that there had been a banking strike in Ireland that lasted six months. And mostly, you know, if the bin men go on strike it lasts about a week because you need people to collect your bins. The bankers went on strike for six months, and people were just writing cheques to each other that basically counted as currency. Because eventually I will be able to cash this when the banking strike is over. They created their own currency! In the end, the bankers had to come back to work because nobody missed them. And I think, isn’t that an interesting idea? What happens if the government just stops the social contract and we all go, okay, we’re going to create our own money, sod you.

Manda: Because you don’t need our taxes, you make money out of nothing. Very, very quickly I think modern Monetary theory is going to rise to the top and this fabrication that the government has to take taxes in order to pay anything else will be blown out of the water. And when that’s gone, what comes in its place? Ford, who was a white supremacist, he would have loved Musk, a long, long time ago, said that when people work out how money is created, there will be pitchforks on the streets. And I think in that he was right, and that moment is coming quite soon. And then and the ideas that are lying around are the ones that will be picked up. And if there are enough ideas of connection and coherence and solidarity amongst communities, then the world changes. So we’re way over time as ever. Looby, let’s come back to you, for where has this taken you? What is most alive for you in this moment? And what would you like to say in closing?

Looby: Wow. Well, we’ve really gone down many different routes, and my mind’s like going, whoa! Yes, yes. This is so important, this work. I think that’s what’s kind of really resonating with me in this moment. And to really invite people to explore and to be involved. I’ve got a free cultural emergence taster course online and just there’s loads of possibilities for dipping your toes in, or for going for deep immersion and to be saying yes! And to really think, well, how would I be responding to these tools if I had the belief that these tools were the things that we needed that would make the difference, that would enable us to move into the place we want to get to. And that’s, I think really a valuable question to ask yourself. And just one last closing thought, then; Joanna macy talks about the Great Turning.

Manda: That’s now. We are in it.

Looby: And we’re in the Great Turning, we’re in the great unravelling. And some people are still in the business as usual and where do we put our attention? And what I like to think of is that we’re on a trajectory, but it’s just a small shift that we need to take in this moment that really takes us to a very different place in the future. So it’s not this huge shift that we need to make now. It’s just how can we turn our attention towards that regenerative future that we want for the present and the future generations? How do we turn our attention towards that and step up and step forth and speak out in small ways, in significant ways that make a difference in our own lives, as well as rippling out.

Manda: Fantastic. And I just flicked through my many, many pages of notes back to the beginning. You guys have a course on the 6th of May, a live course. Am I right on that?

Looby: Yes. So we’ve got a free online peace workshop. So if you’d like to come and spend time with us online for an experiential, embodied experience of peace, empowerment and cultural emergence, do join us and we’ll share a link.

Manda: Excellent. I will put a link in the show notes to that and to everything else that we’ve mentioned. To your books, to your Ceed cards, to what Leona does. Leona, as we’re closing, anything that you would like to say, give people ideas of what to do or just just to bring us to a close.

Leona: Um. Thank you. I would say the most important thing that we’re doing now is building connection with ourselves, building connection with others. And really looking for those who are talking the way we want to hear and who are doing the things that we want to do, and making choices really consciously. My podcast is called Connection Matters because for me, connection matters. It’s the key. There I share conversations. I have had two conversations with you already Manda, but with other amazing change makers including Looby and other inspiring people, and also solo episodes from me which feed into a little bit of what is keeping me ticking in these times. But generally get out onto the land, don’t think too much, get back into the body and make the most of what you have, because you know, this is what we have.

Manda: Yeah. And we’re here for such a short time. And when you listen to the land, it has so much to say. I think that’s really, really lovely place to end. So, Leona, thank you. I will absolutely put a link to Connection Matters. So everybody go and listen to Leona’s podcast. Looby, thank you, I will put links to everything that you’re doing. You have a new book coming out in September. Just as we close, tell us the title and I’ll put a link to your website and then it’ll have places to go. Tell us the title of your new book.

Looby: It’s called Design Adventures. How can we adventure into life and use our agency?

Manda: Fantastic. And it will be available all around the world in September. Fantastic. Thank you both for coming on to the Accidental Gods podcast. It has been an absolute delight and I think somehow together, we and everybody else, we can lay the foundations for a future that we would be proud to leave behind. There is still time. Thank you.

Manda: Well, there we go. That’s it for another week. Enormous thanks to Leonora and to Looby for all that you are and do. There is so much in this. There’s books, there’s the card deck, there’s the online courses, there’s the in-person courses. There’s all of the work with Jon Young. And all of it is leading us to a place where we step out of the current system, where we abandon business as usual because it is not working for us. And we step into the power of being ourselves. We find that place of being and becoming and belonging, where we can express our heart’s desire as integral parts of the web of life. We just need the leaders. We need the elders. We need the people who can help us along the way. We need people to show us, to model for us, the small steps that we can take that step after step after step, lead us away from the old disintegrating system into something where we are alive. Where we can become the best of ourselves. Where we can actually be what the world needs us to be so that we can become the good ancestors that lay the foundations for a future that we can pass to the generations yet unborn. This is what we’re here for. So people, please go and follow the links, join the courses, pick up the books, read them, listen to Leona’s podcast, do whatever it takes because time is short now. We are Wile E coyote out over the canyon, and we have a limited amount of time to set the conditions to step into what we know we need to be, what we can be, what we would actually enjoy being.

Manda: So please, whatever you do, start taking those steps and start talking to other people about what the steps are. About the fact that there is a better world out there. We don’t need to keep doing what we’ve done before, because some idiots told us that it was useful. Because those idiots are walking away. And so we can walk away too. We can dance away. We can sing our way to something different. So there we go. That’s it for this week. We will be back next week with another conversation. In the meantime, thank you to Caro C for the music at the Head and Foot. To Alan Lowles of Airtight Studios for the production. To Lou Mayor for the YouTube. To Anne Thomas for the transcripts. To the Cat for bringing whatever it is that she’s bringing in the background. To Faith Tilleray for the website, for wrestling with the tech, for helping us to step into a different way of being. And as ever, an enormous thanks to you for listening. If you know of anybody else who wants to know the ways that we can step into this new way of being, then please do send them this link. And however you’re listening, please subscribe, give us a review, throw some stars. It really does help the algorithms to reach more people. And right now, reaching the maximum number of people is what we’re here for. So if you can do anything to help with that, we would be hugely grateful. And that’s it for now. See you next week. Thank you and goodbye.

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